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technical question regarding wheel geometry 3 years 5 months ago #62981

I am a former car mechanic, i know why you need negative camber, positive track or negative, but i struggle here in the RC world.

In real life the powered wheel will always get negative track, because of the torque the motor produces. This twists the axle forward (lets forget backward driving, since there is no high speed, lot of power involved).
I noticed here in the RC world it is backward. All the powered wheels, as long as they are not also the steering wheel axle, will get positive track angle.
Could someone please explain why this is the case, i really would like to understand the reasoning behind that and not simply follow instructions.
Thx in advance,
Lem

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Last edit: by Lemsko.

technical question regarding wheel geometry 3 years 5 months ago #62984

I am a former car mechanic, i know why you need negative camber, positive track or negative, but i struggle here in the RC world.

In real life the powered wheel will always get negative track, because of the torque of the motor produces. This twists the axle forward (lets forget backward driving, since there is no high speed, lot of power involved).
I noticed here in the RC world it is backward. All the powered wheels, as long as they are not also the steering wheel axle, will get positive track angle.
Could someone please explain why this is the case, i really would like to understand the reasoning behind that and not simply follow instructions.
Thx in advance,
Lem


I guess postive track = toe-in, negatice track = toe-out?

Toe-in gives stability (like the "snowplow" position for beginners skiing), at the expense of steering response. Personally I can understand having a little of it on the front of an FWD car, but I really can't understand it on the rear, as found on most (at least Tamiya) RC cars. I guess it's because most RC cars get used in car parks where steering is not a priority, but spinning out in a straight line would be a loss of face?

The FF-01 chassis has two "options" for the rear suspension geometry, "high speed" (toe-in) and "technical" (toe-out, swapping some parts from side to side), but realistically it's more like "understeers like a supertanker" or "will actually go round corners".

In my experience it's not just on-road chassis that have the problem, 4WD off-roaders too, like the Bigwig. In my experience the only way to get that to turn adequately was to use old, hard tyres on the rear, and also run the rear suspension very stiff in order to make it as squirrelly as possible.

IMO toe-in on the back end of an RC car is wrong, but I guess I'm in a minority.

In some cases there's no "geometry" at all at the rear - Lunchbox etc - and the lack of steering is not caused by that ... in which case the "fix" is to stab on and off the power & make an isocagon out of any curve ;)

:)
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technical question regarding wheel geometry 3 years 5 months ago #62985

Thank you very much for this detailed answer.

Front wheels toe out for racing is same in real live. Toe in for street cars where stable driving is priority, toe out for agility in races. There i fully understand the concept and its same in both worlds.
Yeah, a "unstable" rear axle makes sense for spinning and drifting.

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technical question regarding wheel geometry 3 years 5 months ago #63006

The reasons the Lunchbox chassis have poor steering is because when it goes down the road and have no to little weight up front, the front wheels have loads of positive camber like the old time racers pre 30s, this means there is way less tire contact to the surface.
Negative camber is the other way round as the body leans over the suspension during a turn and the tire gets more contact with the surface.
That's why you see racers have more negative camber than road cars as they need more steering.
Drifters go beond the point of the grip, because they need the tires to slip the surface when needed, at the rear, that's why they run excessive negative camber.

Toe-in, tends to make the car steady while toe-out, makes it turn sharper.

For the Lunchbox, all you have to make it turn is to lower it so the tires sit level ish at the front, add swaybarr up front and fit grippier tires.
I did that on my Lunchbox, to the point I actually has too much grip up front at times so the the front wants to tip midway in a hard corner, 9 of 10 times I catch it tho'
Also lowered it a bit with help of touring car shocks, and it now handles corners and jumps without tumbling all the time.
It's like a real car, if lowering are done right you will get better grip and handling.

On both rc and real cars, I like to run about zero toe-in up front, in the real world it saves tire wear.
I like to go camber instead of toe.

For real cars rear toe-in is a bed idea for tire life.
For stbility its good, but combine that with camber as most estates tend to do, things can wear out fast.
There is a known fact the Mondeo estates, espesially the latest gen have loads of problems due those have both toe-in and camber at the same time, add too soft bushes it gets silly in short amount of time.
There has been lads that have worn out rear tires after 6 months on a brand new vehicle, the soft compound of quality tires like ontinal don't help either.
On my Mondeo I got them to adjust the rear to zero toe-in, and let the camber bi, it was out of tolerance at 3.5 degrees, but tire wear was not a issue anymore.
It was just a bit more unstable in the rear during winter months, i'm a rwd persond, so I don't mind that.

When it comes to rc cars, toe-in at the rear should make it more stable at speed and have a bit sharper turn in vs zero toe-in.
As my real cars, I don't like rear toe'in, think my driving style don't suit it, I have steady fingers.

I also build scale crawlers, I tend to build those with zero to a tad toe-out at front, but mostly zero.
Those kind of vehicles have most of the times zero ackerman built in, that means the inner wheel turn more than outher so there, so there is no need to toe'out to get better turning.
And usually these only get driven at walking pace on trails so there is no need for fancy suspension angles.
Vehicles without zero ackerman may need need toe-out to not making a 20 point turn.
Since these type of vehicles mostly comes with live axles, there is no camber to adjust, just steering.
The 4 and 3 link suspension is a whole other chapter, which is more complex than you think.

So to sum it up, for my use I tend to stick with zero-toe in on rc vehicles, but adjust camber if possible to get more grip.

And as a tip if anybody is wondering what toe'in and out is about.
Its like standing over the vehicle with the front facing away from you or as you see it from behind.
Toe-in is where the front of tire is pointing towards eachother and toe-out is where tires are pointing outwards at the front.
If you front tires are worn on the outside, it has toe-in, if the tires are worn on the inside it has toe-out, unless it has positive camber which wear on the outside in both cases.

I'm also a mechanic, but I never finished the second year as I found it was to much computer going on and not enough wrenching, even back in the mid 90s.
Also tried truck mechanics (lorry), but parts was to heavy for me and I early found out i hate diesel engines (on my 13th car and still only have owned petrol cars so far, despite living in a diesel country).
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technical question regarding wheel geometry 3 years 5 months ago #63011

Thank you for this very detailed answer.
computer in car mechanic education only started after i already finished, i graduated in 1987. In our car garage the computer was still running from a giant tape, lol
But since that time i hate simply doing stuff without knowing the reasoning behind it.
Again thank you, sir o7
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